On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 3:12 AM Josef Holzmayr-Khosh Amoz
See opinions and comments inline and below.
Am Mi., 15. Juli 2020 um 07:31 Uhr schrieb Trevor Woerner <twoerner@...>:
As most are aware, there are efforts in many open-source/free-softwareI explicitly welcome the awareness and think we should go forward with this.
communities to adjust the language that is used throughout a given project
to be more inclusive.
We discussed this briefly at the most recent YP Technical Team/Engineering
Sync Meeting. Many good points were raised. I'd like to start a discussion on
this topic via email in order to enumerate and keep track of these efforts.
1. As a project we need to decide whether or not to undertake this work. Not
all projects have decided to make any changes. The discussions we had at the
last meeting made it feel as though it was a forgone conclusion by those who
spoke up that we would take on this work. Is that the consensus? Silence
2. Scope Creep. From the dawn of the OE project, there have been "discussions"Fully agreed.
around variable/function names. In order to keep this work sane and concise, I
must insist that the scope of this work is "inclusive language" not "PN is too
cryptic for beginners, we should expand it to PACKAGENAME"
3. Deprecation Plan. Given the layered nature of the ecosystem, inevitablyThis is the first time where I'll cite Torvalds "WE DO NOT BREAK
there will be not-so-frequently-used layers out there that could stop working
entirely depending on how this work is implemented. Do we continue to support
the "old" language indefinitely? Do we have a flag day where everything
changes at once? Do we give warnings for X releases then have a cut off?
USERSPACE!". And any name-shuffling that breaks builds just for the
sake of "inclusion" will have the exact opposite effect: it "excludes"
the users, and we get the not-so-benevolent dictator label. Plus, we
serve a business case. Name-shuffling is fine if we're talking about a
hobbyist project that can break whatever it likes, but for the
industrial use case breaking stuff just for the sake of "we decided
that this name is not cool anymore" is a total no-go in my opinion.
4. What will be affected? Branch names, variable names, function names,Everything that is newly introduced shall be affected, Whenever
fetchers, patch file names, documentation… Given the fact we build code from
upstream projects, if we currently build from an upstream's master branch and
that upstream project never changes the name of their main branch away from
"master", I don't think there's anything we can do in those cases.
something new gets into the system, we shall take care to make sure
all best naming practises at the time of the introduction are adhered.
But once it is in, it is in.
5. Backports. How far back do we make changes?Not at all.
6. Terminology. The Linux kernel project has put out some recommendations:Hopefully not getting into a flamewar now, but I have to point out
that these recommendations are, again, extremely US-centric. For
example, me being German, the term "leader"(Führer) is highly loaded.
So who has the right to decide that this is better than "master" which
is the exact opposite of loaded in German ("Meister") , and only
denotes a somewhat high degree of competence at something?
This is actually the most interesting point to me. In anything we undertake, the
higher level goals should be stated (not just a technical document with
rename mappings), that the effort is being done with the best intentions,
if mistakes happen the effort will evolve over time, and the language that
is being used as the baseline.
Living in an officially bilingual country, speaking 3 (or 4 if you are generous)
languages, there are many words which are offensive to one language/culture
and not to others (or are just downright funny when heard to the non native
speakers' ears). I'd think our European community members are very familiar
with this (even more than some other regions).
My main point is that deciding to do something is the easy part, coming up
with the plan will take some time (due to the above and many more issues)
and the implementation/stabilization even more time (I'm stating the obvious).
So we should go into this with eyes wide open that it won't be trivial or
necessarily quick to do.
So in a nutshell, I agree with the conclusion Jon draw in
https://lwn.net/Articles/823224/ - we must go forward and improve, but
not at the very real cost of breaking stuff and making on part of the
users unhappy just to make another group of people happy.
My $.02, you may beat me now.
To start the discussion, can we please get a consensus on item #1? If
positive, can we then work on whether we agree with the list of items (have I
forgotten anything, are there things to add to the list, or things to remove
from the list)? THEN can we please focus on each of the items from the list we
I think that would be a more sane approach rather than trying to do everything
- Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer, for chaos and madness await
thee at its end
- "Use the force Harry" - Gandalf, Star Trek II